CSO Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 5
November 30, 2007
We have received a response from the original subject of our Conversation With a Mormon series who we shall now refer to as mogel007.
mogel007 Says:
November 29th, 2007 at 10:03 pmModerator said: “Nowhere can I find an explicit statement of Christ volunteering, however I find numerous references to being sent by the Father,”
______________________________________________Are you saying then, that one cannot volunteer and also be chosen and foreordained to be the One and only Redeemer that was sent and chosen by the Father? Must there be an inconsistency when one does not necessarily exist except in your own mind? Can’t volunteering & also being sent because Jesus volunteered & was chosen by the Father too, as the best canidate for the job, be consistent and still in reality be the same thing, rather than you jumping to conclusions that this automatically presents a false doctrine since it must be one or the other?
Referring to the atonement, didn’t Christ also “volunteer” as a thought or question to the Father, to have him do things in another way if it were possible? If Jesus had no choice or agency in the matter, & just was a robot that was sent, why would he say in his greatest moments of struggle: “If it were possible, please remove this cup from me”, as if Jesus was looking for another way to perform the atonement, but in the end, he said talking to his Father: ” never the less, not my will, but thine will be done.”
As for the scripture that says, “God is not man,” is also accurate. He is not a man, a man being a mortal being subject to weakness, sin, & disease. God the Father is not a man in that sense, but an “Exalted resurrected & perfected Man”, not capable of death, sin, or disease, or corruption. That is the point that is being made, which you obviously missed. Since God became a God, he has been that way from everlasting to everlasting, incapable of changing his nature or his glory.
In regards to your first paragraph:
We can ‘could it be’ all day long, but, we would merely be speculating and only for the purpose of supporting extra biblical doctrines.
Let’s look again at the scripture I provided:
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
A plain reading of the scripture, in context, is extremely clear – I did not come of myself.
I find it particularly interesting that you insist on attempting to cloud the issue, in light of the rest of the following text:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
I will be happy to continue this aspect of our discussion upon your submission of Biblical scripture which supports your contention that Christ is a ‘volunteer’.
In Paragraph 2 you hang yourself while attempting to make a point. Christ clearly is not looking forward to the ordeal He is about to go through. As the Son of Man, He is appointed to die for the sins of the world, and it is a horrible prospect. (To suggest He is a robot is unconscionable – another instance of your attributing words to this author that were neither stated nor implied). As you yourself quoted – “let not my will” (does this sound like a ‘volunteer’?) “but thine will be done”.
Paragraph 3 – Ah, yes. The infamous Mormon teaching that God was once a man.
Please correct me if the following is an inaccurate quote:
Joseph Smith said: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! … I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see …. (MD, p. 321).
Utter blasphemy, plain and simple.
Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Comprendas?
Also from mogel007, in response to our observations, to which I will comment within the quoted text for expedience sake:
mogel007 Says:
November 30th, 2007 at 1:55 amModerator says: “Baptism does indeed fall within the realm of works and is not a requisite of salvation, though we are admonished to be baptized as an outward display of our faith. Receiving of the Holy Spirit is a result of, not a condition for, Salvation.”
Funny, that is not what the scriptures say:
Luke 1: 16: “He that believeth, and is baptized shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not, shall be DAMNED.”
NOTE: The Baptism debate is not exclusive to Mormon teaching – our contention is and remains that Baptism is works – salvation is by Grace through Faith
The cited scripture would be more compelling if it read: “but he that believeth not and is not baptised, shall be DAMNED.” However, it does not.
John 3: 5 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he he CANNOT ENTER INTO THE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” Two baptisms are specifically mentioned here: baptism of water, & baptism of the Spirit or receiving the Holy Ghost. “The Holy Ghost will teach you all truth.” Funny how someone can think they can be saved in ignorance. A person in ignorance is still susceptible to the fiery darts of Satan, especially without the gift of the Holy Ghost to lead you in the paths of truth.
Once again, we must look at the isolated scripture you attempt to twist to your purpose, in context:
John 3
1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
In response to Nicodemus’ question “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” Jesus refers first to a physical birth – the first birth – of water – referring to the womb – and Spiritual birth – the second birth – born again – of the Spirit.
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
A plain reading, in context, reveals that this has nothing to do with Baptism, try as one might to misuse it to prove a fallacy.
What kind of salvation is that being an unbaptized person then? You obviously won’t see or participate in His kingdom.
The moderator must think damnation & salvation are one & the same obviously if baptism IS NOT NECESSARY because he that is not baptized shall be DAMNED. LOL
Again, an attempt to credit beliefs to this author that were neither stated nor implied, in an attempt to give validity to an unsupportable position.
Course the moderator has confused resurrection or life eternal ( a gift to all men through Christ’s grace ) as the only salvation discussed in most parts of the Bible. Yes, all except the sons of perdition who deny the Holy Ghost, & commit the unpardonable sin, will be saved from the grave & not lie in the grave eternally & have your flesh rot in the earth eternally & be subject to Satan. Jesus prepared a way out from that through his atonement, death, & his own resurrection & overcame death and it’s sting. This is a universal salvation that doesn’t require any works from man.
The “other salvation” or other meaning of salvation, which most Christian don’t want to discuss or even consider, specifically require good works and repentence in order to achieve God’s greatest blessings or to truly have salvation. Mormons call this other salvation & term it “exaltation”, a gift that is earned.
The “other salvation” isn’t by man’s works; it’s a gift from Jesus & that is life eternal & being resurrected. This is a free gift GIVEN TO ALL WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED & one does not need to claim this gift; it is automatically given after you die & IS NOT DEPENDENT UPON ANY WORKS LEST ONE SHOULD BOAST. All men are resurrected regardless of how they live their life.
The scriptures say, “that all men will bow & confess that Jesus is the Christ” is an eventual reality. This will become a fact sooner or later, whether in this life or in the life to come. All will recognize & confess with their lips that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world. Course even the Devils acknowledge him & tremble. This is no revelation, but this seems to be the most important part of the gospel of most Evangelicals that you must accept Jesus Christ. If they read their scriptures, they would understand this will happen anyway.
As the book of Mormon declares, “Men are saved after all that they can do.” This does not take away from Christ’s merits or grace, but also adds personal responsibility of keeping the commandments of God for exaltation (salvation) too. Salvation denotes or means being saved from something? What do most Christian believe they are saved from? Hell & it’s suffering? Or do they believe that salvation automatically means they are going to Heaven to dwell with God & Christ eternally in Heaven, & receive the good life, simply for something that Christ accomplished 2000 years ago?
There simply is no scriptural basis for this concept of “other salvation”. Heresy, pure and simple. Feel free to provide supportive Biblical scripture to show otherwise.
For the sake of congruity, I will include your replies to our previous respondent, known as JLF. Perhaps he/she will return to comment:
mogel007 Says:
November 29th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
JLF:You said: “honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments ” will go to the middle kingdom. I’m sorry to inform you, but that’s not what D&C Section 76 says. If you were truly an informed LDS or Mormon, you would not have said that in those terms. You can’t be honorable & disobey the commandments. Honorable people are those that honor what they are given. Honorable people are those that try to keep the commandments, but are not valiant in their beliefs & their actions & don’t receive more intelligence that will eventually perfect them, because they don’t ask for it & do not “hunger & thirst after righteousness”, but the little they know, they abide by. I suspect you are an honorable person & you will end up in the terrestrial kingdom in the end, since your judging abilities of others are less than honorable & you don’t bother to find out all the facts before you come to a fair judgment. Honorable people are often deceived, but they do have good intentions. I don’t think you are LDS/Mormon either (LOL) , otherwise you would have listed 1 Cor 15: 39-42 as a scriptual reference point for the different kingdoms in the after life. If you were, you would have presented things better & labeled the highest degree or kingdom where people go as the “celestial glory” or place where God & Christ live. These people are those that are valiant in their testimony of Christ. You would have also been more specific & labeled the 2nd kingdom of glory where people go in the next life as the “terrestrial kingdom” where the “honorable people” of the earth end up. You would also have labeled the lowest kingdom where people go as the “telestial kingdom” of glory & would have mentioned that these are the people that go to hell in the Spirit World & come out of hell after paying for their sins. I don’t think your presented the LDS view very well either. Maybe you should re-read D&C Section 76. After all, you forgot to mention that ALL PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED & RECEIVE SALVATION DUE TO THE DEATH & RESURRECTION OF jESUS CHRIST. The reason why Non Mormon christians make such a big deal out of discussing salvation is because they don’t realize that all men & women will be saved or have salvation, which is nothing more than going to heaven & receiving an immortal resurrected body which is available by the sole merits of Jesus Christ which is all about grace & not about works of the people. See D&C 76: 44
These Christians think they must ironically accept Jesus into their life & confess Jesus with their lips, that he is the Saviour, which ironically IS A WORK, something they say is not important.
JLF, you also forgot to mention that the word “salvation” as discussed in the scriptures can either refer to the resurrection of a person, or to their final judgment which is receiving either a telestial resurrected body, or a terrestrial resurrected body, or a celestial resurrected body. Salvation is not Exaltation, Exaltation being the highest gift that God can give, which is nothing less than receiving an immortal celestial body & receiving the highest kingdom & receiving the “continuation of the lives”, which in essence is receiving Godhood or Godesshood & having the ability to create your own earths & have a “continuation of the seed” forever & ever.
The fact of the matter is that Mormonism is the only religion that teaches that all mankind will be saved except the sons of perdition who will be few. Since that is true, it is stupid to discuss salvation in the terms that most protestants discuss it in order to discount the importance of works in the final resting place in Heaven. Even the telestial kingdom is considered part of heaven, but all Mormons know that salvation without exaltation is not reaching your full potential. In order to reach your full potential, works must be considered. That was the main point I was trying to make. Obviously you missed that point. Your problem though; not mine.
Still think I’m not LDS? Think again! Pray about your judgments next time & then you won’t come to such an erroenous judgment of someone you don’t even know, next time.
mogel007 Says:November 29th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
JLB said: “I understand why you would not want to include any B of M passages”.
Frankly, I don’t understand it, nor should you condone such a rigid point of view either of “closed mindedness”. You must not have the missionary spirit which is another reason why I don’t think you present the Mormon point of view very well either. Another possible reason why I think you couldn’t understand the Mormon point of view very well, or maybe you aren’t a baptized member of the Church after all? Didn’t David O’McKay, a late prophet of the Church say: “Every member should be a missionary”. Are you possessing such a spirit when you condone not discussing the BOM?
mogel007 Says:
November 30th, 2007 at 2:32 amJLB said this: “Where we differ from historical Christianity is that we believe honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments will find a second or lower place to exist for eternity. The balance of humanity will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity.”
________________________Actually this is not what Mormons believe. But in all fairness, how can JLB determine such correct doctrine, when he can’t even make a fair judgment that I am LDS, or not, which of course I am LDS. Even the moderator knows this fact!!! Go figure. This is what is said about those that inherit the terrestrial or middle kingdom. No where does it say they violate the commandments of God. As a matter of fact it says:
D&C 72: “Behold these are they who died WITHOUT LAW.”
Can’t disobey a commandment if you didn’t learn about it in mortal life.73. And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh.
74. Who received not the testiony of Jesus in the flesh, but AFTERWARDS RECEIVED IT.
75. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who WERE BLINDED BY THE CRAFTINESS OF MEN.
In other words, they were bad judges of character & bad judges of the truth & ones that are easily deceived. Why are they deceived? Probably because they don’t have the Holy Ghost & it’s guidance. Go figure. JLB will be right at home in that kingdom WITH THE IGNORANT.
76. “These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fullness.”
Obviously, they couldn’t disobey something they didn’t receive, specifically all the commandments of God, they knew nothing about. I guess the real question is, how is it honorable to disobey any commandments of God if you truly understood the commanments?
No, I’m going to give JLB the benefit of the doubt & just say he isn’t LDS or in the very least, he just doesn’t understand simple basic doctrines. I must admit, I never considered or heard in any Mormon sermon, that being “honorable” meant to willfully & knowingly disobey the commandments of the Lord.
Lastly, JLB said: “The BALANCE OF HUMANITY will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity.”
Actually to be more accurate, it isn’t the balance of humanity, it will be the BULK OR MAJORITY OF HUMANITY THAT WILL GO TO THE LOWEST KINGDOM WHICH IS THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM:
82. These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus,
83. These are they who deny not the Holy Ghost.
103. These are they who are liars, and sorcers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105. These are they who suffer the vengence of eternal fire.
106. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almight God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.
109. But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and THE INHABITANTS OF THE TELESTIAL WORLD, THAT THEY WERE AS INNUMERABLE AS THE STARS IN THE FIRMAMENT OF HEAVEN OR AS THE SAND UPON THE SEASHORE.
Yes, MOST ALL PEOPLE WILL EVENTAULLY GO TO THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM, NOT THE “BALANCE OF HUMANITY” AS JLB put it. Course if he studied his scriptures more extensively, he wouldn’t make such ignorant comments & pretend to know more than he actually does.
Fewer people will go to the middle glory, the terrestrial kingdom, and fewer people still will end up in the highest glory, or the celestial kingdom.
Course if JLB was really trying to teach & explain things well, he also would have mentioned in the celestial kingdom, there are also 3 degrees or separation or kingdoms too, meaning probably that each degree represents a different planet or place, but since he probably isn’t very well schooled in explaining Mormon doctrine accurately or even well, he obviously left those VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENTS elements out too, & falsely leading people to believe that there were only 3 degrees of glory in Heaven, when in fact there are more.
Paul once exclaimed “that he was caught up to the 7th Heaven in Spirit.” 7 separate Heavens? Obviously Mormon doctrine adds more sense and credibility in light of Paul’s experience, instead of the simple Christian view of only one Heaven & one hell or only one Kingdom of God, and one Kingdom of the Devil. Course if God is going to judge us ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, it stands to reason that there are varying gifts of rewards & different rewards & different varying places to go, based upon our zeal & valiancy.
I will allow JLF the opportunity to respond to the comments addressed to him/her by mogel007. If there were additional comments being submitted during the preparation of this newsletter, they will appear in the comments section and may be addressed at a later date, if such is the case.
Additional comments are welcome from one and all.
Blessings all around.
Proverbs 18
1Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom.
2A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
3When the wicked cometh, then cometh also contempt, and with ignominy reproach.
4The words of a man’s mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook.
5It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment.
6A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.
7A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.
8The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
9He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.
10The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.
11The rich man’s wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit.
12Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.
13He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
14The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?
15The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.
16A man’s gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men.
17He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.
18The lot causeth contentions to cease, and parteth between the mighty.
19A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.
20A man’s belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.
21Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
22Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.
23The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly.
24A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.
