Archive for November, 2007

Conversation With A Mormon – Part 3

Friday, November 30th, 2007

CSO Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 5
November 30, 2007

We have received a response from the original subject of our Conversation With a Mormon series who we shall now refer to as mogel007.

mogel007 Says:

Moderator said: “Nowhere can I find an explicit statement of Christ volunteering, however I find numerous references to being sent by the Father,”
______________________________________________

Are you saying then, that one cannot volunteer and also be chosen and foreordained to be the One and only Redeemer that was sent and chosen by the Father? Must there be an inconsistency when one does not necessarily exist except in your own mind? Can’t volunteering & also being sent because Jesus volunteered & was chosen by the Father too, as the best canidate for the job, be consistent and still in reality be the same thing, rather than you jumping to conclusions that this automatically presents a false doctrine since it must be one or the other?

Referring to the atonement, didn’t Christ also “volunteer” as a thought or question to the Father, to have him do things in another way if it were possible? If Jesus had no choice or agency in the matter, & just was a robot that was sent, why would he say in his greatest moments of struggle: “If it were possible, please remove this cup from me”, as if Jesus was looking for another way to perform the atonement, but in the end, he said talking to his Father: ” never the less, not my will, but thine will be done.”

As for the scripture that says, “God is not man,” is also accurate. He is not a man, a man being a mortal being subject to weakness, sin, & disease. God the Father is not a man in that sense, but an “Exalted resurrected & perfected Man”, not capable of death, sin, or disease, or corruption. That is the point that is being made, which you obviously missed. Since God became a God, he has been that way from everlasting to everlasting, incapable of changing his nature or his glory.

In regards to your first paragraph:

We can ‘could it be’ all day long, but, we would merely be speculating and only for the purpose of supporting extra biblical doctrines.

Let’s look again at the scripture I provided:

John 8:

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

A plain reading of the scripture, in context, is extremely clear – I did not come of myself.

I find it particularly interesting that you insist on attempting to cloud the issue, in light of the rest of the following text:

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

I will be happy to continue this aspect of our discussion upon your submission of Biblical scripture which supports your contention that Christ is a ‘volunteer’.

In Paragraph 2 you hang yourself while attempting to make a point. Christ clearly is not looking forward to the ordeal He is about to go through. As the Son of Man, He is appointed to die for the sins of the world, and it is a horrible prospect. (To suggest He is a robot is unconscionable – another instance of your attributing words to this author that were neither stated nor implied). As you yourself quoted – “let not my will” (does this sound like a ‘volunteer’?) “but thine will be done”.

Paragraph 3 – Ah, yes. The infamous Mormon teaching that God was once a man.

Please correct me if the following is an inaccurate quote:

Joseph Smith said: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! … I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see …. (MD, p. 321).

Source

Utter blasphemy, plain and simple.

Genesis 1

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Comprendas?

Also from mogel007, in response to our observations, to which I will comment within the quoted text for expedience sake:

mogel007 Says:
November 30th, 2007 at 1:55 am

Moderator says: “Baptism does indeed fall within the realm of works and is not a requisite of salvation, though we are admonished to be baptized as an outward display of our faith. Receiving of the Holy Spirit is a result of, not a condition for, Salvation.”

Funny, that is not what the scriptures say:

Luke 1: 16: “He that believeth, and is baptized shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not, shall be DAMNED.”

NOTE: The Baptism debate is not exclusive to Mormon teaching – our contention is and remains that Baptism is works – salvation is by Grace through Faith

The cited scripture would be more compelling if it read: “but he that believeth not and is not baptised, shall be DAMNED.” However, it does not.

John 3: 5 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he he CANNOT ENTER INTO THE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” Two baptisms are specifically mentioned here: baptism of water, & baptism of the Spirit or receiving the Holy Ghost. “The Holy Ghost will teach you all truth.” Funny how someone can think they can be saved in ignorance. A person in ignorance is still susceptible to the fiery darts of Satan, especially without the gift of the Holy Ghost to lead you in the paths of truth.

Once again, we must look at the isolated scripture you attempt to twist to your purpose, in context:

John 3

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In response to Nicodemus’ question “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” Jesus refers first to a physical birth – the first birth – of water – referring to the womb – and Spiritual birth – the second birth – born again – of the Spirit.

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

A plain reading, in context, reveals that this has nothing to do with Baptism, try as one might to misuse it to prove a fallacy.

What kind of salvation is that being an unbaptized person then? You obviously won’t see or participate in His kingdom.

The moderator must think damnation & salvation are one & the same obviously if baptism IS NOT NECESSARY because he that is not baptized shall be DAMNED. LOL

Again, an attempt to credit beliefs to this author that were neither stated nor implied, in an attempt to give validity to an unsupportable position.

Course the moderator has confused resurrection or life eternal ( a gift to all men through Christ’s grace ) as the only salvation discussed in most parts of the Bible. Yes, all except the sons of perdition who deny the Holy Ghost, & commit the unpardonable sin, will be saved from the grave & not lie in the grave eternally & have your flesh rot in the earth eternally & be subject to Satan. Jesus prepared a way out from that through his atonement, death, & his own resurrection & overcame death and it’s sting. This is a universal salvation that doesn’t require any works from man.

The “other salvation” or other meaning of salvation, which most Christian don’t want to discuss or even consider, specifically require good works and repentence in order to achieve God’s greatest blessings or to truly have salvation. Mormons call this other salvation & term it “exaltation”, a gift that is earned.

The “other salvation” isn’t by man’s works; it’s a gift from Jesus & that is life eternal & being resurrected. This is a free gift GIVEN TO ALL WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED & one does not need to claim this gift; it is automatically given after you die & IS NOT DEPENDENT UPON ANY WORKS LEST ONE SHOULD BOAST. All men are resurrected regardless of how they live their life.

The scriptures say, “that all men will bow & confess that Jesus is the Christ” is an eventual reality. This will become a fact sooner or later, whether in this life or in the life to come. All will recognize & confess with their lips that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world. Course even the Devils acknowledge him & tremble. This is no revelation, but this seems to be the most important part of the gospel of most Evangelicals that you must accept Jesus Christ. If they read their scriptures, they would understand this will happen anyway.

As the book of Mormon declares, “Men are saved after all that they can do.” This does not take away from Christ’s merits or grace, but also adds personal responsibility of keeping the commandments of God for exaltation (salvation) too. Salvation denotes or means being saved from something? What do most Christian believe they are saved from? Hell & it’s suffering? Or do they believe that salvation automatically means they are going to Heaven to dwell with God & Christ eternally in Heaven, & receive the good life, simply for something that Christ accomplished 2000 years ago?

There simply is no scriptural basis for this concept of “other salvation”. Heresy, pure and simple. Feel free to provide supportive Biblical scripture to show otherwise.

    For the sake of congruity, I will include your replies to our previous respondent, known as JLF. Perhaps he/she will return to comment:

    mogel007 Says:
    November 29th, 2007 at 9:02 pm

    JLF:You said: “honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments ” will go to the middle kingdom. I’m sorry to inform you, but that’s not what D&C Section 76 says. If you were truly an informed LDS or Mormon, you would not have said that in those terms. You can’t be honorable & disobey the commandments. Honorable people are those that honor what they are given. Honorable people are those that try to keep the commandments, but are not valiant in their beliefs & their actions & don’t receive more intelligence that will eventually perfect them, because they don’t ask for it & do not “hunger & thirst after righteousness”, but the little they know, they abide by. I suspect you are an honorable person & you will end up in the terrestrial kingdom in the end, since your judging abilities of others are less than honorable & you don’t bother to find out all the facts before you come to a fair judgment. Honorable people are often deceived, but they do have good intentions. I don’t think you are LDS/Mormon either (LOL) , otherwise you would have listed 1 Cor 15: 39-42 as a scriptual reference point for the different kingdoms in the after life. If you were, you would have presented things better & labeled the highest degree or kingdom where people go as the “celestial glory” or place where God & Christ live. These people are those that are valiant in their testimony of Christ. You would have also been more specific & labeled the 2nd kingdom of glory where people go in the next life as the “terrestrial kingdom” where the “honorable people” of the earth end up. You would also have labeled the lowest kingdom where people go as the “telestial kingdom” of glory & would have mentioned that these are the people that go to hell in the Spirit World & come out of hell after paying for their sins. I don’t think your presented the LDS view very well either. Maybe you should re-read D&C Section 76. After all, you forgot to mention that ALL PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED & RECEIVE SALVATION DUE TO THE DEATH & RESURRECTION OF jESUS CHRIST. The reason why Non Mormon christians make such a big deal out of discussing salvation is because they don’t realize that all men & women will be saved or have salvation, which is nothing more than going to heaven & receiving an immortal resurrected body which is available by the sole merits of Jesus Christ which is all about grace & not about works of the people. See D&C 76: 44

    These Christians think they must ironically accept Jesus into their life & confess Jesus with their lips, that he is the Saviour, which ironically IS A WORK, something they say is not important.

    JLF, you also forgot to mention that the word “salvation” as discussed in the scriptures can either refer to the resurrection of a person, or to their final judgment which is receiving either a telestial resurrected body, or a terrestrial resurrected body, or a celestial resurrected body. Salvation is not Exaltation, Exaltation being the highest gift that God can give, which is nothing less than receiving an immortal celestial body & receiving the highest kingdom & receiving the “continuation of the lives”, which in essence is receiving Godhood or Godesshood & having the ability to create your own earths & have a “continuation of the seed” forever & ever.

    The fact of the matter is that Mormonism is the only religion that teaches that all mankind will be saved except the sons of perdition who will be few. Since that is true, it is stupid to discuss salvation in the terms that most protestants discuss it in order to discount the importance of works in the final resting place in Heaven. Even the telestial kingdom is considered part of heaven, but all Mormons know that salvation without exaltation is not reaching your full potential. In order to reach your full potential, works must be considered. That was the main point I was trying to make. Obviously you missed that point. Your problem though; not mine.

    Still think I’m not LDS? Think again! Pray about your judgments next time & then you won’t come to such an erroenous judgment of someone you don’t even know, next time.


    mogel007 Says:

    November 29th, 2007 at 9:10 pm

    JLB said: “I understand why you would not want to include any B of M passages”.

    Frankly, I don’t understand it, nor should you condone such a rigid point of view either of “closed mindedness”. You must not have the missionary spirit which is another reason why I don’t think you present the Mormon point of view very well either. Another possible reason why I think you couldn’t understand the Mormon point of view very well, or maybe you aren’t a baptized member of the Church after all? Didn’t David O’McKay, a late prophet of the Church say: “Every member should be a missionary”. Are you possessing such a spirit when you condone not discussing the BOM?

    mogel007 Says:
    November 30th, 2007 at 2:32 am

    JLB said this: “Where we differ from historical Christianity is that we believe honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments will find a second or lower place to exist for eternity. The balance of humanity will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity.”
    ________________________

    Actually this is not what Mormons believe. But in all fairness, how can JLB determine such correct doctrine, when he can’t even make a fair judgment that I am LDS, or not, which of course I am LDS. Even the moderator knows this fact!!! Go figure. This is what is said about those that inherit the terrestrial or middle kingdom. No where does it say they violate the commandments of God. As a matter of fact it says:

    D&C 72: “Behold these are they who died WITHOUT LAW.”
    Can’t disobey a commandment if you didn’t learn about it in mortal life.

    73. And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh.

    74. Who received not the testiony of Jesus in the flesh, but AFTERWARDS RECEIVED IT.

    75. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who WERE BLINDED BY THE CRAFTINESS OF MEN.

    In other words, they were bad judges of character & bad judges of the truth & ones that are easily deceived. Why are they deceived? Probably because they don’t have the Holy Ghost & it’s guidance. Go figure. JLB will be right at home in that kingdom WITH THE IGNORANT.

    76. “These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fullness.”

    Obviously, they couldn’t disobey something they didn’t receive, specifically all the commandments of God, they knew nothing about. I guess the real question is, how is it honorable to disobey any commandments of God if you truly understood the commanments?

    No, I’m going to give JLB the benefit of the doubt & just say he isn’t LDS or in the very least, he just doesn’t understand simple basic doctrines. I must admit, I never considered or heard in any Mormon sermon, that being “honorable” meant to willfully & knowingly disobey the commandments of the Lord.

    Lastly, JLB said: “The BALANCE OF HUMANITY will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity.”

    Actually to be more accurate, it isn’t the balance of humanity, it will be the BULK OR MAJORITY OF HUMANITY THAT WILL GO TO THE LOWEST KINGDOM WHICH IS THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM:

    82. These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus,

    83. These are they who deny not the Holy Ghost.

    103. These are they who are liars, and sorcers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

    104. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

    105. These are they who suffer the vengence of eternal fire.

    106. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almight God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.

    109. But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and THE INHABITANTS OF THE TELESTIAL WORLD, THAT THEY WERE AS INNUMERABLE AS THE STARS IN THE FIRMAMENT OF HEAVEN OR AS THE SAND UPON THE SEASHORE.

    Yes, MOST ALL PEOPLE WILL EVENTAULLY GO TO THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM, NOT THE “BALANCE OF HUMANITY” AS JLB put it. Course if he studied his scriptures more extensively, he wouldn’t make such ignorant comments & pretend to know more than he actually does.

    Fewer people will go to the middle glory, the terrestrial kingdom, and fewer people still will end up in the highest glory, or the celestial kingdom.

    Course if JLB was really trying to teach & explain things well, he also would have mentioned in the celestial kingdom, there are also 3 degrees or separation or kingdoms too, meaning probably that each degree represents a different planet or place, but since he probably isn’t very well schooled in explaining Mormon doctrine accurately or even well, he obviously left those VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENTS elements out too, & falsely leading people to believe that there were only 3 degrees of glory in Heaven, when in fact there are more.

    Paul once exclaimed “that he was caught up to the 7th Heaven in Spirit.” 7 separate Heavens? Obviously Mormon doctrine adds more sense and credibility in light of Paul’s experience, instead of the simple Christian view of only one Heaven & one hell or only one Kingdom of God, and one Kingdom of the Devil. Course if God is going to judge us ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, it stands to reason that there are varying gifts of rewards & different rewards & different varying places to go, based upon our zeal & valiancy.

    I will allow JLF the opportunity to respond to the comments addressed to him/her by mogel007. If there were additional comments being submitted during the preparation of this newsletter, they will appear in the comments section and may be addressed at a later date, if such is the case.

    Additional comments are welcome from one and all.

    Blessings all around.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Proverbs 18

    1Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom.

    2A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

    3When the wicked cometh, then cometh also contempt, and with ignominy reproach.

    4The words of a man’s mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook.

    5It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment.

    6A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

    7A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.

    8The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.

    9He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.

    10The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.

    11The rich man’s wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit.

    12Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.

    13He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

    14The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?

    15The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.

    16A man’s gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men.

    17He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.

    18The lot causeth contentions to cease, and parteth between the mighty.

    19A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.

    20A man’s belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.

    21Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

    22Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

    23The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly.

    24A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.

    Conversation With A Mormon – Part 2

    Monday, November 12th, 2007

    CSO Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 4
    November 12, 2007

    The following is a comment received from reader “JLF” regarding Conversation With A Mormon:

    I don’t think the person who responded to your piece is LDS. He/she may be, but they did not represent the LDS view of faith and works very well. In fact I don’t think I have ever heard much of that explanation before.

    Like you said, Christ paid the price for our sins and by doing so freely gave us the gift of resurrection and eternal life by His grace. We didn’t deserve it and can do nothing to earn it. That is the end of that conversation.

    Works are the manifestation of our faith. if you are faithful you will follow Gods commandments, i.e. “works”. That is where the Faith without works is dead comes in. Mormon theology says after we are resurrected, we will be judged according to our faithfulness in following the commandments. Those who have been faithful will live with God and Christ and be partakers of Christ’s inheritance. Where we differ from historical Christianity is that we believe honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments will find a second or lower place to exist for eternity. The balance of humanity will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity. Each is a separate and distinct kingdom if you will. Satan, his angels and those who committed the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Spirit when they had perfect knowledge will be ejected into outer darkness.

    I understand why you would not want to include any B of M passages but there is supporting doctrine there too.

    Thank you, much, for your thoughtful response, JLF.

    I would like to address some of your comments.

    Let’s look at:

    Like you said, Christ paid the price for our sins and by doing so freely gave us the gift of resurrection and eternal life by His grace. We didn’t deserve it and can do nothing to earn it. That is the end of that conversation.

    On the face of it, we would appear to be in agreement.

    However, (please correct me if I am mistaken) I believe Mormon doctrine differs in the view of salvation: Mormons regard salvation as a gift given to all and Christians regard salvation as a gift offered to all, but not accepted by all.

    For this discussion, I will be referring to lightplanet.com, due to a handy resource index there (if anyone knows the information contained therein to be erroneous, kindly let us know).

    I am starting from their page at:
    http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/doctrines/salvation_eom.htm

    Salvation is the greatest gift of God (D&C 6:13). The root of the word means to be saved, or placed beyond the power of one’s enemies (TPJS, pp. 297, 301, 305). It is redemption from the bondage of sin and death, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Some degree of salvation will come to all of God’s children except the sons of perdition.

    Atonement of Jesus Christ “The Atonement of Jesus Christ is the foreordained but voluntary act of the Only Begotten Son of God. He offered his life, including his innocent body, blood, and spiritual anguish as a redeeming ransom (1) for the effect of the Fall of Adam upon all mankind and (2) for the personal sins of all who repent, from Adam to the end of the world.” Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Encyclopedia of Mormonism

    I’ll get back to the ‘Atonement’ definition, but first, let us explore – who are the “sons of perdition”?

    According to
    http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/afterlife/perdition_eom.htm

    by Bruce R. McConkie

    Lucifer is Perdition. He became such by open rebellion against the truth, a rebellion in the face of light and knowledge. Although he knew God and had been taught the provisions of the plan of salvation, he defied the Lord and sought to enthrone himself with the Lord’s power. (Moses 4:1-4.) He thus committed the unpardonable sin. In rebellion with him were one-third of the spirit hosts of heaven. These all were thus followers (or in other words sons) of perdition. They were denied bodies, were cast out onto the earth, and thus came the devil and his angels — a great host of sons of perdition.

    Those in this life who gain a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the gospel cause, a knowledge that comes only by revelation from the Holy Ghost, and who then link themselves with Lucifer and come out in open rebellion, also become sons of perdition. Their destiny, following their resurrection, is to be cast out with the devil and his angels, to inherit the same kingdom in a state where “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” (D. & C. 76:32-49; 29:27-30; Heb. 6:4-8; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; 2 Ne. 9:14-16; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 47-49; vol. 2, pp. 218-225.)

    Joseph Smith said: “All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. (Teachings, p. 358.)
    Mormon Doctrine, p.746 Copyright by Bookcraft

    [Note: A bit of research leads me to believe that McConkie’s book Mormon Doctrine is oft cited by Christian apologists attempting to make sense of Mormonism, but Mormon leadership has distanced itself from this book and its author.]

    I searched the KJV for ’sons of perdition’ and came up with zero results. I tried again with ‘perdition’ and found 8 references, 2 of which, John 17:12 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 contain the phrase ‘son of perdition’.

    Taken in context:

    John 17:

    11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

    2 Thessalonians 2:

    2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    I find it difficult to focus on a given issue when dividing their teachings by the Word of God, because of the extraordinary number of Mormon teachings that ring false. They have extrapolated so much and taken great liberties in doing so. I say this now because verse 4 above reminds me that they teach that those who are most diligent in ‘works’ shall attain godhood! Am I mistaken in that assessment?

    What are we to make of the following?:

    “As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become”.’
    (Articles of Faith: Apostle James E. Talmage pp. 442-3)

    Does Mormonism really teach that God was/is a man? If so, how can such a teaching be explained in light of:

    Numbers 23:

    19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent

    Let me try to regain my focus by referring back to a portion of JLF’s comment:

    That is where the Faith without works is dead comes in. Mormon theology says after we are resurrected, we will be judged according to our faithfulness in following the commandments. Those who have been faithful will live with God and Christ and be partakers of Christ’s inheritance. Where we differ from historical Christianity is that we believe honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments will find a second or lower place to exist for eternity. The balance of humanity will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity.

    JLF, the only Biblical reference I can find, which Mormons use to support the theory of 3 levels of salvation is within Corinthians 15, and I cannot fathom how they have leapt to such an erroneous conclusion. Perhaps you can steer me to a fuller explanation, i.e., Biblical scriptures, to support this belief?

    In regards to your statement:

    Satan, his angels and those who committed the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Spirit when they had perfect knowledge will be ejected into outer darkness.

    Perhaps that is an inaccurate representation of Mormon doctrine on your part? I ask, because the Bible clearly says:

    Matthew 25:

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    [In all fairness, I must add that there is also mention of 'eternal darkness' in Matthew 25 verse 30:

    And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.]

    I’d like to go back now to the ‘Atonement’ definition and its assertion of the voluntary nature of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. I only make a point of this, because I see it as yet another instance of Mormons adding to that which is stated in the Bible. Nowhere can I find an explicit statement of Christ volunteering, however I find numerous references to being sent by the Father, and most clearly, I think, here:

    John 8:

    42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

    And with those final thoughts, I will close with a prayer.

    Heavenly Father,

    I thank you for all of your blessings Lord and pray that we are able to reach, not only those who have not heard Your call, but, also, those who believe that they have heard You and have answered Your call, when, in reality have accepted a counterfeit.

    For we know, as it is written in Your Word, Father:

    Galatians 1:

    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

    11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

    12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    We pray and hold fast to the promise that Your Word will not return void, Father, in the name of Your Son, Jesus Christ. Amen

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Proverbs 17

    1 Better is a dry morsel, and quietness therewith, than an house full of sacrifices with strife.

    2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

    3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.

    4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.

    5 Whoso mocketh the poor reproacheth his Maker: and he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.

    6 Children’s children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.

    7 Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.

    8 A gift is as a precious stone in the eyes of him that hath it: whithersoever it turneth, it prospereth.

    9He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends.

    10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

    11 An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.

    12 Let a bear robbed of her whelps meet a man, rather than a fool in his folly.

    13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

    14 The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.

    15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

    16 Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?

    17 A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.

    18 A man void of understanding striketh hands, and becometh surety in the presence of his friend.

    19 He loveth transgression that loveth strife: and he that exalteth his gate seeketh destruction.

    20 He that hath a froward heart findeth no good: and he that hath a perverse tongue falleth into mischief.

    21 He that begetteth a fool doeth it to his sorrow: and the father of a fool hath no joy.

    22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

    23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

    24 Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth.

    25 A foolish son is a grief to his father, and bitterness to her that bare him.

    26 Also to punish the just is not good, nor to strike princes for equity.

    27 He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.

    28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

    Conversation With A Mormon

    Friday, November 9th, 2007

    CSO Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 3
    November 09, 2007

    I received a rebuttal to this statement I made in our previous newsletter – Vol 2, No 2, entitled The Dimensions of Faith:

    “While works are an element of faith, salvation is not hinged upon works.”

    A Mormon made the following response. Have a read through it and I will begin dissecting it on the other side.

    “While such a thought is not even scriptural, than logically speaking following your logic, FAITH IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY FOR SALVATION TOO SINCE FAITH & WORKS ARE INTERTWINED. It also follows that confessing Jesus Christ as our Saviour & accepting him as your Saviour is also “a work” which of course, according to your logic MUST ALSO BE MEANINGLESS TOWARDS SALVATION TOO. Course FAITH must be totally unnecessary too for salvation too, since it is “a work” TOO. Course all the principles that Jesus taught must also be unnecessary for salvation like possessing and incorporating “hope”, “faith”, “tolerance” and “charity” in one’s life too. The famous “Beatitutes” taught by Jesus must also be meaningless towards salvation too according to your logic. It also follows according to your logic, that following God’s commandments and laws are also unnecessary for salvation too since those are “works” too. The commandments must be an elective, or just a mere suggestion, but not a requirement. Jesus’s admonition in Math 5:48 must also be meant to take as just a suggestion, but certainly nothing serious like the subject of salvation.

    You know come to think of it , you’re religious thought does have a certain appeal. LOL

    I don’t have to do anything or become anyone special, and God will save me. I can be totally evil and do whatever I want, sin as much as I want, don’t have to repent, since repentence is a work, and God will save me irregardless of my fowl personality. Man, if that lie doesn’t appeal to the masses, nothing will. LOL

    Is baptism a work? Are unbaptized christians not saved? Is faith a work? Is receiving the Holy Ghost by “the laying on of hands,” a “work”? Is receiving the HOly Ghost even necessary for salvation? HOw is the gift of the Holy Ghost even actually received?

    James said: “faith without works IS DEAD, just like your religion of spiritual thought” which is a “cult” , & you don’t even know it. How sad!!!!!!!!!!

    Come to think of it , Christians that believe in all the scriptures & not just a few, and believe that works is necessary for salvation too, not just the grace of Christ, have nothing to lose in the end, but those like you, THAT COULD BE MISTAKEN, and live your life in a lie, and BEHAVE ACCORDINGLY, CERTAINLY LOSE IT ALL IN THE END if you are wrong.

    I already believe that part of the gospel in what you profess, so if you are correct WE ARE BOTH SAVED. However if you are wrong……..

    You condemn me for believing MORE TRUTH and label me a “lost soul”. That’s the comedy and tragedy of it all.

    Did anyone hear that right wing protestant that said on TV a few days ago that “Mormonism is a cult and Mormons AREN’T EVEN CHRISTIANS”?

    Apparently, he is attacking Mitt Romney’s religion, since he is a Mormon, who is running for President, and Mr. Romney stands a good chance of being the republican choice, although he isn’t my first choice.

    The ministers logic is, if Mitt Romney isn’t a Christian, he isn’t fit for running for a governmental office. LOL So much for opend minded thought & religious tolerance. LOL Since when should someone’s religion be a “political issue”? Have we gone so far down hill as a tolerant nation of the 1st amendment to the constitution?

    Does it get any better as far as ignorance is concerned?

    The first article of the Mormon faith penned by Joseph Smith reads: “We believe in God the Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost”.

    Can it get any plainer than that, that Mormons profess to be Christians? That ignorant minister who spreads “hate”, should study more. His ignorance of Mormon doctrine is showing.”

    Here we go. Our respondent’s points will appear in bold.

    1) “While such a thought is not even scriptural”

    To review, the thought in question is:

    “While works are an element of faith, salvation is not hinged upon works.”

    Let us turn to the Word of God … the Holy Bible … there will be no references to the Book of Mormon or their doctrines and covenants.

    Ephesians 2

    1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ;)

    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    It is abundantly clear, evidenced by scripture, that any and all works associated with the act of Salvation are on the part of God, Who:

    · Quickens us (calls us)

    · Is merciful to us

    · Loves us

    · Raises us up

    · Makes us sit

    · Demonstrates Grace toward us

    · Is kind to us

    By Grace we are saved through faith and not by works… so that none may boast – can this possibly be any clearer? It is the gift of God!

    We are HIS workmanship! As I originally stated, “works are an element of faith”, but we must be careful not to put the cart before the horse, as we are created in Christ Jesus (saved) unto, or for, good works, not the other way around.

    Our respondent immediately attempts to attribute to me, using what he refers to as “your logic”, arguments or conclusions that were never raised by this author. This is a typical maneuver used to confuse, rather than clarify issues. But, let us humor him, shall we?

    2) “logically speaking following your logic, FAITH IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY FOR SALVATION TOO SINCE FAITH & WORKS ARE INTERTWINED.”

    The article from which my statement – “While works are an element of faith, salvation is not hinged upon works.”- was taken, clearly states that faith is required for salvation, illustrated by:

    Hebrews 11:

    6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

    3) “It also follows that confessing Jesus Christ as our Saviour & accepting him as your Saviour is also “a work” which of course, according to your logic MUST ALSO BE MEANINGLESS TOWARDS SALVATION TOO. Course FAITH must be totally unnecessary too for salvation too, since it is “a work” TOO.”

    Here we have more spin attempting to confuse my stated position. I see no basis for labeling ‘confessing’, ‘accepting’ nor ‘faith’ as “a work”, and I certainly never drew nor presented those conclusions.

    The respondent continuous sarcastically stating:

    4) “Course all the principles that Jesus taught must also be unnecessary for salvation like possessing and incorporating “hope”, “faith”, “tolerance” and “charity” in one’s life too.”

    We have already covered ‘hope’ and ‘faith’ in the previous article, once again ignored by our respondent.

    Hebrews 11

    1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Although it is not his intention, he partly makes a true statement. Tolerance and charity are not requirements for Salvation…for we are sinners before we are redeemed in Christ, as evidenced in Ephesians 2: 1-3, above. As we grow in Christ, through the Holy Spirit, these ‘fruits of the Spirit’ and others, are made manifest, as described in Galatians 5. The same holds true regarding his “Beatitutes” (sic) statement. No one is blessed apart from Salvation and the attributes described in the beatitudes are a result of, not the cause of, Salvation.

    5) “It also follows according to your logic, that following God’s commandments and laws are also unnecessary for salvation too since those are “works” too. The commandments must be an elective, or just a mere suggestion, but not a requirement. Jesus’s admonition in Math 5:48 must also be meant to take as just a suggestion, but certainly nothing serious like the subject of salvation. ”

    The Ten Commandments are of extreme importance, so much so, that no one was ever able to live up to them! That is the whole point of the new covenant and Salvation, by Grace, through faith!

    Hebrews 8:

    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

    8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    Also, to the aforementioned points made by our respondent and in regard to the reference to:

    Matthew 5:

    48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    I give answer with:

    Romans 3:

    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

    30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    The following is purely malicious spin on the part of our respondent, and is not representative of anything penned by this author. To clarify our position, I will say that repentance is required for Salvation in so much as only a sincere and contrite affirmation of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is sufficient, which by nature includes turning from sin.

    6) “You know come to think of it , you’re religious thought does have a certain appeal. LOL

    I don’t have to do anything or become anyone special, and God will save me. I can be totally evil and do whatever I want, sin as much as I want, don’t have to repent, since repentence is a work, and God will save me irregardless of my fowl personality. Man, if that lie doesn’t appeal to the masses, nothing will. LOL”

    The respondent continues with a string of questions…

    7) “Is baptism a work? Are unbaptized christians not saved? Is faith a work? Is receiving the Holy Ghost by “the laying on of hands,” a “work”? Is receiving the HOly Ghost even necessary for salvation? HOw is the gift of the Holy Ghost even actually received?”

    Baptism does indeed fall within the realm of works and is not a requisite of salvation, though we are admonished to be baptized as an outward display of our faith. Receiving of the Holy Spirit is a result of, not a condition for, Salvation.

    Next we have our respondent (perhaps, combatant, would be a better adjective by this point) stating:

    8) James said: “faith without works IS DEAD, just like your religion of spiritual thought” which is a “cult” , & you don’t even know it. How sad!!!!!!!!!!

    Here we have an example of a single verse pulled out of its direct context, as well as out of the context of other Biblical teachings regarding the dynamics of Salvation.

    James is addressing his Brethren, fellow followers of Jesus Christ, already saved people, to whom he is giving encouragement and edification. Works follow faith. Faith leads to Salvation. Works do not earn salvation, but emanate from the faithful.

    James also says: “shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

    I would encourage our respondent to pay as much attention to James 3 as he would have others focus on part of James 2

    The next section takes two statements a bit out of order, but as they are related, I believe it is productive to do so:

    9) “You condemn me for believing MORE TRUTH and label me a “lost soul”.”

    “The first article of the Mormon faith penned by Joseph Smith reads: “We believe in God the Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost”.

    Can it get any plainer than that, that Mormons profess to be Christians?”

    Firstly, I condemn no one. It’s not my place, nor do I have the ability. I do, however, believe that Mormons are one of many groups of people who have been misled and that the ‘more truth’ of which he speaks has been spun out of whole cloth.

    As for the first article of faith, take another look at James 2, this time at verse 19:

    Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Furthermore, Mormonism deviates sharply from the Bible on crucial issues.

    While they refer to Jesus Christ, and profess to be Christians, they do not adhere to Biblical doctrine and represent Jesus as a creation, a spirit son of God the Father and brother to Lucifer, born through intercourse between Mary and God the Father.

    According to Mormon doctrine, all human creations were spirit children before birth and have the ability to attain godhood, through works.

    Satan, the author of confusion, hissed as much into the ear of Eve.

    There are tons of resources available for a comparative analysis of Mormonism vs. Christianity. (See search results )

    One such analysis is: The Truth About Mormons by Dennis and Rauni Higley, which begins with a quote:

    President Joseph Fielding Smith (President of the LDS Church in the early 1970’s) stated:

    “Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false…”

    (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1 pp.188-189.)

    Personally, I have a difficult time believing the story that (simplified version):
    Joseph Smith received and translated golden plates, purportedly written over a period of time dating back to 600 B.C. by Mormon and buried in the America’s by Moroni, to be found and deciphered by Smith, revealing to him that all the churches since Christ are in error and that Smith is to establish the one true church of Mormon.

    Of course, the golden plates seem to be unavailable for skeptics to examine, however, the ancient scrolls, purchased by Smith and translated by him, to become the Book of Abraham, from ancient Egyptian (by a gift of translation ability he did not otherwise possess) did surface in 1966, have been translated by independent experts and found to be, in actuality, funerary documents from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. More details may be found in the article The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith

    We also have the matter of the claims that American Indians are descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel. In short, DNA testing has since debunked this claim. More information is available at DNA Genealogies of American Indians and the Book of Mormon, the testimony of ex-Mormon, Simon Southerton and author of the book LOSING A LOST TRIBE: Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon Church

    10) Come to think of it , Christians that believe in all the scriptures & not just a few, and believe that works is necessary for salvation too, not just the grace of Christ, have nothing to lose in the end, but those like you, THAT COULD BE MISTAKEN, and live your life in a lie, and BEHAVE ACCORDINGLY, CERTAINLY LOSE IT ALL IN THE END if you are wrong.”

    I don’t know how many different ways we can try to explain to our Mormon friends that it is they, and not Bible (sans the additional baggage of Mormon theology) believing Christians, who have bought into a lie, denying the nature of Christ and the propitiation of sin, by Grace, through His death and resurrection. While many Mormons do leave the tabernacles, millions more remain in spiritual bondage, believing that works will buy them some level of salvation and godhood, and calling those outside of their faith liars.

    I would encourage them to study the following closely:

    2 Peter 2:

    1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

    3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

    4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

    6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

    7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

    8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

    9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

    10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

    11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

    12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

    13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

    14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

    15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

    16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

    17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

    18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

    19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

    20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

    21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    11) “Did anyone hear that right wing protestant that said on TV a few days ago that “Mormonism is a cult and Mormons AREN’T EVEN CHRISTIANS”?”

    ….

    “That ignorant minister who spreads “hate”, should study more. His ignorance of Mormon doctrine is showing.””

    Actually, I had not heard that. Here is a search of the alleged quote above. Nothing turns up if searched using quotation marks, many results appear otherwise, and I did see an article regarding a Texas minister voicing his opinion, which is certainly within his 1st Amendment rights, unless there has been a change in Constitutional law that I am not aware of. Whether that is the minister in question, I cannot be sure. Judging by our respondents persistence in spinning the facts of his issues, I can only assume that the minister may well be neither hateful nor ignorant, but simply someone expressing a concern that a political candidate who has succumbed to an erroneous belief system just may not be the best suited candidate for President of the United States.

    Brothers and Sisters, I ask you to join me in prayer that followers of Mormonism and others caught up in false teachings see the errors of their beliefs and find true peace and salvation in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

    Amen

    ________________________________________________________________________

    Proverbs 16

    1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

    2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

    3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

    4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

    6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

    7 When a man’s ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

    8 Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.

    9 A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

    10 A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment.

    11 A just weight and balance are the LORD’s: all the weights of the bag are his work.

    12 It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness.

    13 Righteous lips are the delight of kings; and they love him that speaketh right.

    14 The wrath of a king is as messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify it.

    15 In the light of the king’s countenance is life; and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain.

    16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

    17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.

    18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

    19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

    20 He that handleth a matter wisely shall find good: and whoso trusteth in the LORD, happy is he.

    21 The wise in heart shall be called prudent: and the sweetness of the lips increaseth learning.

    22 Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.

    23 The heart of the wise teacheth his mouth, and addeth learning to his lips.

    24 Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.

    25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    26 He that laboureth laboureth for himself; for his mouth craveth it of him.

    27 An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire.

    28 A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends.

    29 A violent man enticeth his neighbour, and leadeth him into the way that is not good.

    30 He shutteth his eyes to devise froward things: moving his lips he bringeth evil to pass.

    31 The hoary head is a crown of glory, if it be found in the way of righteousness.

    32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

    33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

    The Dimensions of Faith

    Wednesday, November 7th, 2007

    CSO Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 2
    November 07, 2007

    Why do we believe what we believe?

    Outside the context of a Christian Newsletter, this would be an extremely broad question.

    Still, perhaps I should use a more focused approach, for the sake of clarity.

    Why do we, as Christians, believe what we believe?

    Given the interactive nature of the blog/comment format, let me personalize this directly to you. Why do you believe what you believe, in regards to Christianity? (Are you a non-believer? Feel free to chime in, as well!)

    Let’s take a quick look at the Old Testament, specifically within the story of Noah.

    Leading into the command to Noah, we see:

    Genesis 6:

    5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

    As I look at the world in which we live even today, Brothers and Sisters, I can’t help but marvel at the patience and compassion of God Almighty, that He has not blotted us all out of His sight, once and forever.

    I am reminded, yet again, of the mercy shown upon us by a just God.

    8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

    13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

    14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

    15And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

    16A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

    17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

    18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.

    19And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

    20Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

    21And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

    22Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

    Was this an act of faith or of obedience on the part of Noah? After all, when God is talking directly to you, how much faith is required? There is, of course, a direct parallel to Christian faith…salvation by unmerited Grace.

    Do we have a definition of faith to work with? I believe we do:

    Hebrews 11

    1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    If we look a bit further in the chapter, to verse 7, we, of course, learn that Noah acted in obedience, through faith.

    7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

    Indeed, we are clearly taught, in the preceding verse 6, that faith is of the greatest importance!

    6But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

    As we know, Brothers and Sisters, there are countless people who say they do not believe in God.

    Perhaps, you were once one of them. I know I was…well, I tried to be, but couldn’t quite shake the feeling of conviction whenever I tried to flat-out deny the existence of a Supreme Being, so I settled for ‘agnostic’. I reasoned that I didn’t know if there was a God or not, therefore, I remained free to live my life as I chose. But, I finally had to succumb to the undeniable Truth:

    Romans 1:

    9Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    I hereby challenge ANYONE reading this to look around themselves and present to me a thesis which clearly supports the contention that the universe, the world, the countryside, a butterfly; whatever naturally occurring element you so desire to choose, exists without being the product of a Creator.

    It is, of course, possible to believe in a Supreme Being or Beings, without acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

    We need look no further than Saul, a devout Jew, a Pharisee’s Pharisee if there ever was one, and a major player in the persecution of the early Church, even to the martyr, Stephen.
    Let’s pause for a moment and consider who Stephen was:

    • a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost – (Acts 6:5)
    • full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people – (Acts 6:8)
    • he spake with wisdom and the spirit – (Acts 6:10)
    • all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel – (Acts 6:15)

    Stephan found himself facing the council because “certain of the synagogue” conspired to “set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law: For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.”

    When confronted with the false charges, Stephen could have surely denied them and kept a low profile and would probably have walked away none the worse for the encounter.

    However, what he did was to recite an encapsulated summary of Jewish history from the days of Abraham to the death of Jesus, culminating in a powerful statement, surely stirred by faith and the Holy Spirit, saying:

    Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

    Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
    (Acts 7:51-53)

    Folks, that is one of the best examples of politically incorrectness that I have ever seen, short of Jesus’ own teachings. And the results were predictable:

    When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. (Acts 7:54)

    Yikes! If there was ever a time for an individual to renege on his professed beliefs, for the sake of self-preservation, this would be it.

    But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

    And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

    Were this to happen today, to the subscribers to any of the various religions (read cults) that folks get caught up in, how many would, at this point, quickly set aside their faith as error?

    And [they] cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.

    And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Saul was right there when the first recorded martyrdom for Christ took place with the stoning of Stephen.

    Personally, I think that seeing the steadfastness of Stephens’ convictions, his adherence to his beliefs, should have been a wakeup call for Saul.

    This was not the case.

    And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)

    As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. (Acts 8:3)

    Brothers and Sisters, though you may have read the following before, I ask that you take the time to read it once again, as it is a truly remarkable occurrence; the transforming of Saul to Paul:

    Acts 9

    1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

    2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

    3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

    4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

    5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

    7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

    8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

    9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

    10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

    11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

    12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

    13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

    14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

    15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

    16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.

    17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

    18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

    19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

    20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

    21But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

    22But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

    Paul later makes reference to his conversion experience:

    Galatians 1:

    11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

    12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

    14And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

    15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,

    16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

    17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

    Not many of us, I think, can give testimony to such a dramatic event in our lives as that which was experienced by Saul/Paul.

    What is your testimony? Why do you believe what you believe?

    For myself, some of the most powerful cement for the bonding of my belief that the testimonies of the Gospels is true, comes from the accounts of the persecutions and executions of the Apostles, who died with words of confirmation on their lips and in their hearts.

    Stand Firm!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Proverbs 15

    1A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

    2The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.

    3The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

    4A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

    5A fool despiseth his father’s instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

    6In the house of the righteous is much treasure: but in the revenues of the wicked is trouble.

    7The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.

    8The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

    9The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

    10Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.

    11Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

    12A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.

    13A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.

    14The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

    15All the days of the afflicted are evil: but he that is of a merry heart hath a continual feast.

    16Better is little with the fear of the LORD than great treasure and trouble therewith.

    17Better is a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred therewith.

    18A wrathful man stirreth up strife: but he that is slow to anger appeaseth strife.

    19The way of the slothful man is as an hedge of thorns: but the way of the righteous is made plain.

    20A wise son maketh a glad father: but a foolish man despiseth his mother.

    21Folly is joy to him that is destitute of wisdom: but a man of understanding walketh uprightly.

    22Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

    23A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!

    24The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

    25The LORD will destroy the house of the proud: but he will establish the border of the widow.

    26The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

    27He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

    28The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.

    29The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

    30The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart: and a good report maketh the bones fat.

    31The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.

    32He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.

    33The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

    Christian Soldiers' Word of Mouth Ministries