CSO Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 3
November 09, 2007
I received a rebuttal to this statement I made in our previous newsletter – Vol 2, No 2, entitled The Dimensions of Faith:
“While works are an element of faith, salvation is not hinged upon works.”
A Mormon made the following response. Have a read through it and I will begin dissecting it on the other side.
“While such a thought is not even scriptural, than logically speaking following your logic, FAITH IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY FOR SALVATION TOO SINCE FAITH & WORKS ARE INTERTWINED. It also follows that confessing Jesus Christ as our Saviour & accepting him as your Saviour is also “a work” which of course, according to your logic MUST ALSO BE MEANINGLESS TOWARDS SALVATION TOO. Course FAITH must be totally unnecessary too for salvation too, since it is “a work” TOO. Course all the principles that Jesus taught must also be unnecessary for salvation like possessing and incorporating “hope”, “faith”, “tolerance” and “charity” in one’s life too. The famous “Beatitutes” taught by Jesus must also be meaningless towards salvation too according to your logic. It also follows according to your logic, that following God’s commandments and laws are also unnecessary for salvation too since those are “works” too. The commandments must be an elective, or just a mere suggestion, but not a requirement. Jesus’s admonition in Math 5:48 must also be meant to take as just a suggestion, but certainly nothing serious like the subject of salvation.
You know come to think of it , you’re religious thought does have a certain appeal. LOL
I don’t have to do anything or become anyone special, and God will save me. I can be totally evil and do whatever I want, sin as much as I want, don’t have to repent, since repentence is a work, and God will save me irregardless of my fowl personality. Man, if that lie doesn’t appeal to the masses, nothing will. LOL
Is baptism a work? Are unbaptized christians not saved? Is faith a work? Is receiving the Holy Ghost by “the laying on of hands,” a “work”? Is receiving the HOly Ghost even necessary for salvation? HOw is the gift of the Holy Ghost even actually received?
James said: “faith without works IS DEAD, just like your religion of spiritual thought” which is a “cult” , & you don’t even know it. How sad!!!!!!!!!!
Come to think of it , Christians that believe in all the scriptures & not just a few, and believe that works is necessary for salvation too, not just the grace of Christ, have nothing to lose in the end, but those like you, THAT COULD BE MISTAKEN, and live your life in a lie, and BEHAVE ACCORDINGLY, CERTAINLY LOSE IT ALL IN THE END if you are wrong.
I already believe that part of the gospel in what you profess, so if you are correct WE ARE BOTH SAVED. However if you are wrong……..
You condemn me for believing MORE TRUTH and label me a “lost soul”. That’s the comedy and tragedy of it all.
Did anyone hear that right wing protestant that said on TV a few days ago that “Mormonism is a cult and Mormons AREN’T EVEN CHRISTIANS”?
Apparently, he is attacking Mitt Romney’s religion, since he is a Mormon, who is running for President, and Mr. Romney stands a good chance of being the republican choice, although he isn’t my first choice.
The ministers logic is, if Mitt Romney isn’t a Christian, he isn’t fit for running for a governmental office. LOL So much for opend minded thought & religious tolerance. LOL Since when should someone’s religion be a “political issue”? Have we gone so far down hill as a tolerant nation of the 1st amendment to the constitution?
Does it get any better as far as ignorance is concerned?
The first article of the Mormon faith penned by Joseph Smith reads: “We believe in God the Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost”.
Can it get any plainer than that, that Mormons profess to be Christians? That ignorant minister who spreads “hate”, should study more. His ignorance of Mormon doctrine is showing.”
Here we go. Our respondent’s points will appear in bold.
1) “While such a thought is not even scriptural”
To review, the thought in question is:
“While works are an element of faith, salvation is not hinged upon works.”
Let us turn to the Word of God … the Holy Bible … there will be no references to the Book of Mormon or their doctrines and covenants.
Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
It is abundantly clear, evidenced by scripture, that any and all works associated with the act of Salvation are on the part of God, Who:
· Quickens us (calls us)
· Is merciful to us
· Loves us
· Raises us up
· Makes us sit
· Demonstrates Grace toward us
· Is kind to us
By Grace we are saved through faith and not by works… so that none may boast – can this possibly be any clearer? It is the gift of God!
We are HIS workmanship! As I originally stated, “works are an element of faith”, but we must be careful not to put the cart before the horse, as we are created in Christ Jesus (saved) unto, or for, good works, not the other way around.
Our respondent immediately attempts to attribute to me, using what he refers to as “your logic”, arguments or conclusions that were never raised by this author. This is a typical maneuver used to confuse, rather than clarify issues. But, let us humor him, shall we?
2) “logically speaking following your logic, FAITH IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY FOR SALVATION TOO SINCE FAITH & WORKS ARE INTERTWINED.”
The article from which my statement – “While works are an element of faith, salvation is not hinged upon works.”- was taken, clearly states that faith is required for salvation, illustrated by:
Hebrews 11:
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
3) “It also follows that confessing Jesus Christ as our Saviour & accepting him as your Saviour is also “a work” which of course, according to your logic MUST ALSO BE MEANINGLESS TOWARDS SALVATION TOO. Course FAITH must be totally unnecessary too for salvation too, since it is “a work” TOO.”
Here we have more spin attempting to confuse my stated position. I see no basis for labeling ‘confessing’, ‘accepting’ nor ‘faith’ as “a work”, and I certainly never drew nor presented those conclusions.
The respondent continuous sarcastically stating:
4) “Course all the principles that Jesus taught must also be unnecessary for salvation like possessing and incorporating “hope”, “faith”, “tolerance” and “charity” in one’s life too.”
We have already covered ‘hope’ and ‘faith’ in the previous article, once again ignored by our respondent.
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Although it is not his intention, he partly makes a true statement. Tolerance and charity are not requirements for Salvation…for we are sinners before we are redeemed in Christ, as evidenced in Ephesians 2: 1-3, above. As we grow in Christ, through the Holy Spirit, these ‘fruits of the Spirit’ and others, are made manifest, as described in Galatians 5. The same holds true regarding his “Beatitutes” (sic) statement. No one is blessed apart from Salvation and the attributes described in the beatitudes are a result of, not the cause of, Salvation.
5) “It also follows according to your logic, that following God’s commandments and laws are also unnecessary for salvation too since those are “works” too. The commandments must be an elective, or just a mere suggestion, but not a requirement. Jesus’s admonition in Math 5:48 must also be meant to take as just a suggestion, but certainly nothing serious like the subject of salvation. ”
The Ten Commandments are of extreme importance, so much so, that no one was ever able to live up to them! That is the whole point of the new covenant and Salvation, by Grace, through faith!
Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Also, to the aforementioned points made by our respondent and in regard to the reference to:
Matthew 5:
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I give answer with:
Romans 3:
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
The following is purely malicious spin on the part of our respondent, and is not representative of anything penned by this author. To clarify our position, I will say that repentance is required for Salvation in so much as only a sincere and contrite affirmation of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is sufficient, which by nature includes turning from sin.
6) “You know come to think of it , you’re religious thought does have a certain appeal. LOL
I don’t have to do anything or become anyone special, and God will save me. I can be totally evil and do whatever I want, sin as much as I want, don’t have to repent, since repentence is a work, and God will save me irregardless of my fowl personality. Man, if that lie doesn’t appeal to the masses, nothing will. LOL”
The respondent continues with a string of questions…
7) “Is baptism a work? Are unbaptized christians not saved? Is faith a work? Is receiving the Holy Ghost by “the laying on of hands,” a “work”? Is receiving the HOly Ghost even necessary for salvation? HOw is the gift of the Holy Ghost even actually received?”
Baptism does indeed fall within the realm of works and is not a requisite of salvation, though we are admonished to be baptized as an outward display of our faith. Receiving of the Holy Spirit is a result of, not a condition for, Salvation.
Next we have our respondent (perhaps, combatant, would be a better adjective by this point) stating:
James said: “faith without works IS DEAD, just like your religion of spiritual thought” which is a “cult” , & you don’t even know it. How sad!!!!!!!!!!
Here we have an example of a single verse pulled out of its direct context, as well as out of the context of other Biblical teachings regarding the dynamics of Salvation.
James is addressing his Brethren, fellow followers of Jesus Christ, already saved people, to whom he is giving encouragement and edification. Works follow faith. Faith leads to Salvation. Works do not earn salvation, but emanate from the faithful.
James also says: “shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
I would encourage our respondent to pay as much attention to James 3 as he would have others focus on part of James 2
The next section takes two statements a bit out of order, but as they are related, I believe it is productive to do so:
9) “You condemn me for believing MORE TRUTH and label me a “lost soul”.”
“The first article of the Mormon faith penned by Joseph Smith reads: “We believe in God the Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost”.
Can it get any plainer than that, that Mormons profess to be Christians?”
Firstly, I condemn no one. It’s not my place, nor do I have the ability. I do, however, believe that Mormons are one of many groups of people who have been misled and that the ‘more truth’ of which he speaks has been spun out of whole cloth.
As for the first article of faith, take another look at James 2, this time at verse 19:
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Furthermore, Mormonism deviates sharply from the Bible on crucial issues.
While they refer to Jesus Christ, and profess to be Christians, they do not adhere to Biblical doctrine and represent Jesus as a creation, a spirit son of God the Father and brother to Lucifer, born through intercourse between Mary and God the Father.
According to Mormon doctrine, all human creations were spirit children before birth and have the ability to attain godhood, through works.
Satan, the author of confusion, hissed as much into the ear of Eve.
There are tons of resources available for a comparative analysis of Mormonism vs. Christianity. (See search results )
One such analysis is: The Truth About Mormons by Dennis and Rauni Higley, which begins with a quote:
President Joseph Fielding Smith (President of the LDS Church in the early 1970’s) stated:
“Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false…”
(Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1 pp.188-189.)
Personally, I have a difficult time believing the story that (simplified version):
Joseph Smith received and translated golden plates, purportedly written over a period of time dating back to 600 B.C. by Mormon and buried in the America’s by Moroni, to be found and deciphered by Smith, revealing to him that all the churches since Christ are in error and that Smith is to establish the one true church of Mormon.
Of course, the golden plates seem to be unavailable for skeptics to examine, however, the ancient scrolls, purchased by Smith and translated by him, to become the Book of Abraham, from ancient Egyptian (by a gift of translation ability he did not otherwise possess) did surface in 1966, have been translated by independent experts and found to be, in actuality, funerary documents from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. More details may be found in the article The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith
We also have the matter of the claims that American Indians are descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel. In short, DNA testing has since debunked this claim. More information is available at DNA Genealogies of American Indians and the Book of Mormon, the testimony of ex-Mormon, Simon Southerton and author of the book “LOSING A LOST TRIBE: Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon Church”
10) “Come to think of it , Christians that believe in all the scriptures & not just a few, and believe that works is necessary for salvation too, not just the grace of Christ, have nothing to lose in the end, but those like you, THAT COULD BE MISTAKEN, and live your life in a lie, and BEHAVE ACCORDINGLY, CERTAINLY LOSE IT ALL IN THE END if you are wrong.”
I don’t know how many different ways we can try to explain to our Mormon friends that it is they, and not Bible (sans the additional baggage of Mormon theology) believing Christians, who have bought into a lie, denying the nature of Christ and the propitiation of sin, by Grace, through His death and resurrection. While many Mormons do leave the tabernacles, millions more remain in spiritual bondage, believing that works will buy them some level of salvation and godhood, and calling those outside of their faith liars.
I would encourage them to study the following closely:
2 Peter 2:
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
11) “Did anyone hear that right wing protestant that said on TV a few days ago that “Mormonism is a cult and Mormons AREN’T EVEN CHRISTIANS”?”
….
“That ignorant minister who spreads “hate”, should study more. His ignorance of Mormon doctrine is showing.””
Actually, I had not heard that. Here is a search of the alleged quote above. Nothing turns up if searched using quotation marks, many results appear otherwise, and I did see an article regarding a Texas minister voicing his opinion, which is certainly within his 1st Amendment rights, unless there has been a change in Constitutional law that I am not aware of. Whether that is the minister in question, I cannot be sure. Judging by our respondents persistence in spinning the facts of his issues, I can only assume that the minister may well be neither hateful nor ignorant, but simply someone expressing a concern that a political candidate who has succumbed to an erroneous belief system just may not be the best suited candidate for President of the United States.
Brothers and Sisters, I ask you to join me in prayer that followers of Mormonism and others caught up in false teachings see the errors of their beliefs and find true peace and salvation in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Amen
________________________________________________________________________
Proverbs 16
1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
7 When a man’s ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.
8 Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.
9 A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
10 A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment.
11 A just weight and balance are the LORD’s: all the weights of the bag are his work.
12 It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness.
13 Righteous lips are the delight of kings; and they love him that speaketh right.
14 The wrath of a king is as messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify it.
15 In the light of the king’s countenance is life; and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain.
16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!
17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.
18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.
20 He that handleth a matter wisely shall find good: and whoso trusteth in the LORD, happy is he.
21 The wise in heart shall be called prudent: and the sweetness of the lips increaseth learning.
22 Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.
23 The heart of the wise teacheth his mouth, and addeth learning to his lips.
24 Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
26 He that laboureth laboureth for himself; for his mouth craveth it of him.
27 An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire.
28 A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends.
29 A violent man enticeth his neighbour, and leadeth him into the way that is not good.
30 He shutteth his eyes to devise froward things: moving his lips he bringeth evil to pass.
31 The hoary head is a crown of glory, if it be found in the way of righteousness.
32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.
33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
I don’t think the person who responded to your piece is LDS. He/she may be, but they did not represent the LDS view of faith and works very well. In fact I don’t think I have ever heard much of that explanation before.
Like you said, Christ paid the price for our sins and by doing so freely gave us the gift of resurrection and eternal life by His grace. We didn’t deserve it and can do nothing to earn it. That is the end of that conversation.
Works are the manifestation of our faith. if you are faithful you will follow Gods commandments, i.e. “works”. That is where the Faith without works is dead comes in. Mormon theology says after we are resurrected, we will be judged according to our faithfulness in following the commandments. Those who have been faithful will live with God and Christ and be partakers of Christ’s inheritance. Where we differ from historical Christianity is that we believe honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments will find a second or lower place to exist for eternity. The balance of humanity will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity. Each is a separate and distinct kingdom if you will. Satan, his angels and those who committed the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Spirit when they had perfect knowledge will be ejected into outer darkness.
I understand why you would not want to include any B of M passages but there is supporting doctrine there too.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, JLF.
I may, in the near future, reproduce your comments in a “Conversation Part 2″ piece, as I would like to address some aspects directly, as well as indirectly, related to your reply.
Thanks again and don’t be a stranger, eh?
Bruce
http://christiansoldiersonline.org
JLF:
You said: “honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments ” will go to the middle kingdom. I’m sorry to inform you, but that’s not what D&C Section 76 says. If you were truly an informed LDS or Mormon, you would not have said that in those terms. You can’t be honorable & disobey the commandments. Honorable people are those that honor what they are given. Honorable people are those that try to keep the commandments, but are not valiant in their beliefs & their actions & don’t receive more intelligence that will eventually perfect them, because they don’t ask for it & do not “hunger & thirst after righteousness”, but the little they know, they abide by. I suspect you are an honorable person & you will end up in the terrestrial kingdom in the end, since your judging abilities of others are less than honorable & you don’t bother to find out all the facts before you come to a fair judgment. Honorable people are often deceived, but they do have good intentions.
I don’t think you are LDS/Mormon either (LOL) , otherwise you would have listed 1 Cor 15: 39-42 as a scriptual reference point for the different kingdoms in the after life. If you were, you would have presented things better & labeled the highest degree or kingdom where people go as the “celestial glory” or place where God & Christ live. These people are those that are valiant in their testimony of Christ. You would have also been more specific & labeled the 2nd kingdom of glory where people go in the next life as the “terrestrial kingdom” where the “honorable people” of the earth end up. You would also have labeled the lowest kingdom where people go as the “telestial kingdom” of glory & would have mentioned that these are the people that go to hell in the Spirit World & come out of hell after paying for their sins. I don’t think your presented the LDS view very well either. Maybe you should re-read D&C Section 76. After all, you forgot to mention that ALL PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED & RECEIVE SALVATION DUE TO THE DEATH & RESURRECTION OF jESUS CHRIST.
The reason why Non Mormon christians make such a big deal out of discussing salvation is because they don’t realize that all men & women will be saved or have salvation, which is nothing more than going to heaven & receiving an immortal resurrected body which is available by the sole merits of Jesus Christ which is all about grace & not about works of the people. See D&C 76: 44
These Christians think they must ironically accept Jesus into their life & confess Jesus with their lips, that he is the Saviour, which ironically IS A WORK, something they say is not important.
JLF, you also forgot to mention that the word “salvation” as discussed in the scriptures can either refer to the resurrection of a person, or to their final judgment which is receiving either a telestial resurrected body, or a terrestrial resurrected body, or a celestial resurrected body. Salvation is not Exaltation, Exaltation being the highest gift that God can give, which is nothing less than receiving an immortal celestial body & receiving the highest kingdom & receiving the “continuation of the lives”, which in essence is receiving Godhood or Godesshood & having the ability to create your own earths & have a “continuation of the seed” forever & ever.
The fact of the matter is that Mormonism is the only religion that teaches that all mankind will be saved except the sons of perdition who will be few. Since that is true, it is stupid to discuss salvation in the terms that most protestants discuss it in order to discount the importance of works in the final resting place in Heaven. Even the telestial kingdom is considered part of heaven, but all Mormons know that salvation without exaltation is not reaching your full potential. In order to reach your full potential, works must be considered. That was the main point I was trying to make. Obviously you missed that point. Your problem though; not mine.
Still think I’m not LDS? Think again! Pray about your judgments next time & then you won’t come to such an erroenous judgment of someone you don’t even know, next time.
JLB said: “I understand why you would not want to include any B of M passages”.
Frankly, I don’t understand it, nor should you condone such a rigid point of view either of “closed mindedness”.
You must not have the missionary spirit which is another reason why I don’t think you present the Mormon point of view very well either. Another possible reason why I think you couldn’t understand the Mormon point of view very well, or maybe you aren’t a baptized member of the Church after all? Didn’t David O’McKay, a late prophet of the Church say: “Every member should be a missionary”.
Are you possessing such a spirit when you condone not discussing the BOM?
Moderator says: “Baptism does indeed fall within the realm of works and is not a requisite of salvation, though we are admonished to be baptized as an outward display of our faith. Receiving of the Holy Spirit is a result of, not a condition for, Salvation.”
Funny, that is not what the scriptures say:
Luke 1: 16: “He that believeth, and is baptized shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not, shall be DAMNED.”
John 3: 5 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he he CANNOT ENTER INTO THE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” Two baptisms are specifically mentioned here: baptism of water, & baptism of the Spirit or receiving the Holy Ghost. “The Holy Ghost will teach you all truth.” Funny how someone can think they can be saved in ignorance. A person in ignorance is still susceptible to the fiery darts of Satan, especially without the gift of the Holy Ghost to lead you in the paths of truth.
What kind of salvation is that being an unbaptized person then? You obviously won’t see or participate in His kingdom.
The moderator must think damnation & salvation are one & the same obviously if baptism IS NOT NECESSARY because he that is not baptized shall be DAMNED. LOL
Course the moderator has confused resurrection or life eternal ( a gift to all men through Christ’s grace ) as the only salvation discussed in most parts of the Bible. Yes, all except the sons of perdition who deny the Holy Ghost, & commit the unpardonable sin, will be saved from the grave & not lie in the grave eternally & have your flesh rot in the earth eternally & be subject to Satan. Jesus prepared a way out from that through his atonement, death, & his own resurrection & overcame death and it’s sting. This is a universal salvation that doesn’t require any works from man.
The “other salvation” or other meaning of salvation, which most Christian don’t want to discuss or even consider, specifically require good works and repentence in order to achieve God’s greatest blessings or to truly have salvation. Mormons call this other salvation & term it “exaltation”, a gift that is earned.
The “other salvation” isn’t by man’s works; it’s a gift from Jesus & that is life eternal & being resurrected. This is a free gift GIVEN TO ALL WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED & one does not need to claim this gift; it is automatically given after you die & IS NOT DEPENDENT UPON ANY WORKS LEST ONE SHOULD BOAST. All men are resurrected regardless of how they live their life.
The scriptures say, “that all men will bow & confess that Jesus is the Christ” is an eventual reality. This will become a fact sooner or later, whether in this life or in the life to come. All will recognize & confess with their lips that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world. Course even the Devils acknowledge him & tremble. This is no revelation, but this seems to be the most important part of the gospel of most Evangelicals that you must accept Jesus Christ. If they read their scriptures, they would understand this will happen anyway.
As the book of Mormon declares, “Men are saved after all that they can do.” This does not take away from Christ’s merits or grace, but also adds personal responsibility of keeping the commandments of God for exaltation (salvation) too. Salvation denotes or means being saved from something? What do most Christian believe they are saved from? Hell & it’s suffering? Or do they believe that salvation automatically means they are going to Heaven to dwell with God & Christ eternally in Heaven, & receive the good life, simply for something that Christ accomplished 2000 years ago?
JLB said this: “Where we differ from historical Christianity is that we believe honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments will find a second or lower place to exist for eternity. The balance of humanity will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity.”
________________________
Actually this is not what Mormons believe. But in all fairness, how can JLB determine such correct doctrine, when he can’t even make a fair judgment that I am LDS, or not, which of course I am LDS. Even the moderator knows this fact!!! Go figure. This is what is said about those that inherit the terrestrial or middle kingdom. No where does it say they violate the commandments of God. As a matter of fact it says:
D&C 72: “Behold these are they who died WITHOUT LAW.”
Can’t disobey a commandment if you didn’t learn about it in mortal life.
73. And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh.
74. Who received not the testiony of Jesus in the flesh, but AFTERWARDS RECEIVED IT.
75. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who WERE BLINDED BY THE CRAFTINESS OF MEN.
In other words, they were bad judges of character & bad judges of the truth & ones that are easily deceived. Why are they deceived? Probably because they don’t have the Holy Ghost & it’s guidance. Go figure. JLB will be right at home in that kingdom WITH THE IGNORANT.
76. “These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fullness.”
Obviously, they couldn’t disobey something they didn’t receive, specifically all the commandments of God, they knew nothing about. I guess the real question is, how is it honorable to disobey any commandments of God if you truly understood the commanments?
No, I’m going to give JLB the benefit of the doubt & just say he isn’t LDS or in the very least, he just doesn’t understand simple basic doctrines. I must admit, I never considered or heard in any Mormon sermon, that being “honorable” meant to willfully & knowingly disobey the commandments of the Lord.
Lastly, JLB said: “The BALANCE OF HUMANITY will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity.”
Actually to be more accurate, it isn’t the balance of humanity, it will be the BULK OR MAJORITY OF HUMANITY THAT WILL GO TO THE LOWEST KINGDOM WHICH IS THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM:
82. These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus,
83. These are they who deny not the Holy Ghost.
103. These are they who are liars, and sorcers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105. These are they who suffer the vengence of eternal fire.
106. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almight God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.
109. But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and THE INHABITANTS OF THE TELESTIAL WORLD, THAT THEY WERE AS INNUMERABLE AS THE STARS IN THE FIRMAMENT OF HEAVEN OR AS THE SAND UPON THE SEASHORE.
Yes, MOST ALL PEOPLE WILL EVENTAULLY GO TO THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM, NOT THE “BALANCE OF HUMANITY” AS JLB put it. Course if he studied his scriptures more extensively, he wouldn’t make such ignorant comments & pretend to know more than he actually does.
Fewer people will go to the middle glory, the terrestrial kingdom, and fewer people still will end up in the highest glory, or the celestial kingdom.
Course if JLB was really trying to teach & explain things well, he also would have mentioned in the celestial kingdom, there are also 3 degrees or separation or kingdoms too, meaning probably that each degree represents a different planet or place, but since he probably isn’t very well schooled in explaining Mormon doctrine accurately or even well, he obviously left those VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENTS elements out too, & falsely leading people to believe that there were only 3 degrees of glory in Heaven, when in fact there are more.
Paul once exclaimed “that he was caught up to the 7th Heaven in Spirit.” 7 separate Heavens? Obviously Mormon doctrine adds more sense and credibility in light of Paul’s experience, instead of the simple Christian view of only one Heaven & one hell or only one Kingdom of God, and one Kingdom of the Devil. Course if God is going to judge us ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, it stands to reason that there are varying gifts of rewards & different rewards & different varying places to go, based upon our zeal & valiancy.
[...] We have received a response from the original subject of our Conversation With a Mormon series who we shall now refer to as mogel007. mogel007 Says: November 29th, 2007 at 10:03 pm [...]