CSO Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 4
November 12, 2007
The following is a comment received from reader “JLF” regarding Conversation With A Mormon:
I don’t think the person who responded to your piece is LDS. He/she may be, but they did not represent the LDS view of faith and works very well. In fact I don’t think I have ever heard much of that explanation before.
Like you said, Christ paid the price for our sins and by doing so freely gave us the gift of resurrection and eternal life by His grace. We didn’t deserve it and can do nothing to earn it. That is the end of that conversation.
Works are the manifestation of our faith. if you are faithful you will follow Gods commandments, i.e. “works”. That is where the Faith without works is dead comes in. Mormon theology says after we are resurrected, we will be judged according to our faithfulness in following the commandments. Those who have been faithful will live with God and Christ and be partakers of Christ’s inheritance. Where we differ from historical Christianity is that we believe honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments will find a second or lower place to exist for eternity. The balance of humanity will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity. Each is a separate and distinct kingdom if you will. Satan, his angels and those who committed the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Spirit when they had perfect knowledge will be ejected into outer darkness.
I understand why you would not want to include any B of M passages but there is supporting doctrine there too.
Thank you, much, for your thoughtful response, JLF.
I would like to address some of your comments.
Let’s look at:
Like you said, Christ paid the price for our sins and by doing so freely gave us the gift of resurrection and eternal life by His grace. We didn’t deserve it and can do nothing to earn it. That is the end of that conversation.
On the face of it, we would appear to be in agreement.
However, (please correct me if I am mistaken) I believe Mormon doctrine differs in the view of salvation: Mormons regard salvation as a gift given to all and Christians regard salvation as a gift offered to all, but not accepted by all.
For this discussion, I will be referring to lightplanet.com, due to a handy resource index there (if anyone knows the information contained therein to be erroneous, kindly let us know).
I am starting from their page at:
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/doctrines/salvation_eom.htm
Salvation is the greatest gift of God (D&C 6:13). The root of the word means to be saved, or placed beyond the power of one’s enemies (TPJS, pp. 297, 301, 305). It is redemption from the bondage of sin and death, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Some degree of salvation will come to all of God’s children except the sons of perdition.
Atonement of Jesus Christ “The Atonement of Jesus Christ is the foreordained but voluntary act of the Only Begotten Son of God. He offered his life, including his innocent body, blood, and spiritual anguish as a redeeming ransom (1) for the effect of the Fall of Adam upon all mankind and (2) for the personal sins of all who repent, from Adam to the end of the world.” Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Encyclopedia of Mormonism
I’ll get back to the ‘Atonement’ definition, but first, let us explore – who are the “sons of perdition”?
According to
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/afterlife/perdition_eom.htm
by Bruce R. McConkie
Lucifer is Perdition. He became such by open rebellion against the truth, a rebellion in the face of light and knowledge. Although he knew God and had been taught the provisions of the plan of salvation, he defied the Lord and sought to enthrone himself with the Lord’s power. (Moses 4:1-4.) He thus committed the unpardonable sin. In rebellion with him were one-third of the spirit hosts of heaven. These all were thus followers (or in other words sons) of perdition. They were denied bodies, were cast out onto the earth, and thus came the devil and his angels — a great host of sons of perdition.
Those in this life who gain a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the gospel cause, a knowledge that comes only by revelation from the Holy Ghost, and who then link themselves with Lucifer and come out in open rebellion, also become sons of perdition. Their destiny, following their resurrection, is to be cast out with the devil and his angels, to inherit the same kingdom in a state where “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” (D. & C. 76:32-49; 29:27-30; Heb. 6:4-8; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; 2 Ne. 9:14-16; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 47-49; vol. 2, pp. 218-225.)
Joseph Smith said: “All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. (Teachings, p. 358.)
Mormon Doctrine, p.746 Copyright by Bookcraft
[Note: A bit of research leads me to believe that McConkie’s book Mormon Doctrine is oft cited by Christian apologists attempting to make sense of Mormonism, but Mormon leadership has distanced itself from this book and its author.]
I searched the KJV for ’sons of perdition’ and came up with zero results. I tried again with ‘perdition’ and found 8 references, 2 of which, John 17:12 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 contain the phrase ‘son of perdition’.
Taken in context:
John 17:
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
2 Thessalonians 2:
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
I find it difficult to focus on a given issue when dividing their teachings by the Word of God, because of the extraordinary number of Mormon teachings that ring false. They have extrapolated so much and taken great liberties in doing so. I say this now because verse 4 above reminds me that they teach that those who are most diligent in ‘works’ shall attain godhood! Am I mistaken in that assessment?
What are we to make of the following?:
“As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become”.’
(Articles of Faith: Apostle James E. Talmage pp. 442-3)
Does Mormonism really teach that God was/is a man? If so, how can such a teaching be explained in light of:
Numbers 23:
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent
/blockquote>Let me try to regain my focus by referring back to a portion of JLF’s comment:
That is where the Faith without works is dead comes in. Mormon theology says after we are resurrected, we will be judged according to our faithfulness in following the commandments. Those who have been faithful will live with God and Christ and be partakers of Christ’s inheritance. Where we differ from historical Christianity is that we believe honest and honorable people who did not abide by the commandments will find a second or lower place to exist for eternity. The balance of humanity will find a third and even lesser place to exist throughout eternity.
JLF, the only Biblical reference I can find, which Mormons use to support the theory of 3 levels of salvation is within Corinthians 15, and I cannot fathom how they have leapt to such an erroneous conclusion. Perhaps you can steer me to a fuller explanation, i.e., Biblical scriptures, to support this belief?
In regards to your statement:
Satan, his angels and those who committed the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Spirit when they had perfect knowledge will be ejected into outer darkness.
Perhaps that is an inaccurate representation of Mormon doctrine on your part? I ask, because the Bible clearly says:
Matthew 25:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[In all fairness, I must add that there is also mention of 'eternal darkness' in Matthew 25 verse 30:
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.]
I’d like to go back now to the ‘Atonement’ definition and its assertion of the voluntary nature of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. I only make a point of this, because I see it as yet another instance of Mormons adding to that which is stated in the Bible. Nowhere can I find an explicit statement of Christ volunteering, however I find numerous references to being sent by the Father, and most clearly, I think, here:
John 8:
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
And with those final thoughts, I will close with a prayer.
Heavenly Father,
I thank you for all of your blessings Lord and pray that we are able to reach, not only those who have not heard Your call, but, also, those who believe that they have heard You and have answered Your call, when, in reality have accepted a counterfeit.
For we know, as it is written in Your Word, Father:
Galatians 1:
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
We pray and hold fast to the promise that Your Word will not return void, Father, in the name of Your Son, Jesus Christ. Amen
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Proverbs 17
1 Better is a dry morsel, and quietness therewith, than an house full of sacrifices with strife.
2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.
3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.
4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.
5 Whoso mocketh the poor reproacheth his Maker: and he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.
6 Children’s children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.
7 Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.
8 A gift is as a precious stone in the eyes of him that hath it: whithersoever it turneth, it prospereth.
9He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends.
10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.
11 An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.
12 Let a bear robbed of her whelps meet a man, rather than a fool in his folly.
13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.
14 The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.
15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
16 Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?
17 A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.
18 A man void of understanding striketh hands, and becometh surety in the presence of his friend.
19 He loveth transgression that loveth strife: and he that exalteth his gate seeketh destruction.
20 He that hath a froward heart findeth no good: and he that hath a perverse tongue falleth into mischief.
21 He that begetteth a fool doeth it to his sorrow: and the father of a fool hath no joy.
22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.
23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.
24 Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth.
25 A foolish son is a grief to his father, and bitterness to her that bare him.
26 Also to punish the just is not good, nor to strike princes for equity.
27 He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.
28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
Moderator said: “Nowhere can I find an explicit statement of Christ volunteering, however I find numerous references to being sent by the Father,”
______________________________________________
Are you saying then, that one cannot volunteer and also be chosen and foreordained to be the One and only Redeemer that was sent and chosen by the Father? Must there be an inconsistency when one does not necessarily exist except in your own mind? Can’t volunteering & also being sent because Jesus volunteered & was chosen by the Father too, as the best canidate for the job, be consistent and still in reality be the same thing, rather than you jumping to conclusions that this automatically presents a false doctrine since it must be one or the other?
Referring to the atonement, didn’t Christ also “volunteer” as a thought or question to the Father, to have him do things in another way if it were possible? If Jesus had no choice or agency in the matter, & just was a robot that was sent, why would he say in his greatest moments of struggle: “If it were possible, please remove this cup from me”, as if Jesus was looking for another way to perform the atonement, but in the end, he said talking to his Father: ” never the less, not my will, but thine will be done.”
As for the scripture that says, “God is not man,” is also accurate. He is not a man, a man being a mortal being subject to weakness, sin, & disease. God the Father is not a man in that sense, but an “Exalted resurrected & perfected Man”, not capable of death, sin, or disease, or corruption. That is the point that is being made, which you obviously missed. Since God became a God, he has been that way from everlasting to everlasting, incapable of changing his nature or his glory.
Thank you for your response.
I’ll get back to you with Part 3, as time allows.
God Bless
Bruce
Bruce
The salient differences between Mormons and historic Christians is Mormons are not Trinitarians and we believe in an open scriptural canon. Historic Christians think everything God wanted us to know has already been said. Often I see folks who want to discuss religion insist on relying on their understanding of the Bible. That is fine. Our interpretation is different in a few places. The other significant way we interpret biblical information is through the Book of Mormon and other modern day revelation. Traditional Christians reject such. That is OK . We hold no ill will. Our testimony to those who are interested is God has again put prophets and apostles on the earth just as there was in Christ’s time. That is what we mean by an open canon. we also accept not everyone believes what we teach. But with out teaching we offer a way to put what we say to the test. That is, one can read the B of M, keeping an open mind, having real intent to know the truth of it and if they are sincere they will get an answer. It has happened millions of times. It happened to me. It has happened to countless former Catholics and other Christians too. In fact, I heard it said that Evangelicals make up the bulk of our converts in the United States. They too, at first, refused to accept that God was again speaking to man but they later discovered otherwise. So we will continue to make our case with the aid of the Holy Ghost that what we declare is true.
Bruce
I hit a wrong button and what I submitted was done without editing for errors and completeness. So let me conclude here.
We can only tell you what has been confirmed to us by God through the Holy Ghost. What convinces people of what we say is not what happens when we toss scriptures around. So we don’t. We seek to make our point by using scripture as a way of getting people to put what we say to the test like I said above. The Holy Ghost does the rest. Just you and me slinging scripture passages at each other is essentially meaningless. I accept you will not believe in the B of M until you actually read it with an open mind and with real intent, believing in God. Nothing I say will convince you I am right. But God will. But first you have to ask Him. So short of that, it is just two guys batting their gums together for the exercise of it. And I am sure you are much better at it than I am.